Hardshell freezing/frost on inside

[PaulMags]

In winter, and pretty much all the time, the enemy is too much moisture.

I find highly breathable layers is the key.

I've pretty much given up on hardshells except in the very worse conditions.  In winter, I wear the equivalent of softshell mittens, pants and a light weight fleece top. When moving in windy conditions,  a simple and large windbreak anorak is why I use.  I keep shell mittens and a large hardshell stowed in my pack just in case (usually used when in camp).

If your clothing is breathable, the moisture sublimates on he outside of the clothing.

Here's a link I found very useful:

http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/ 

[fredygump]

6 hours ago, PaulMags said:

In winter, and pretty much all the time, the enemy is too much moisture.

I find highly breathable layers is the key.

I've pretty much given up on hardshells except in the very worse conditions.  In winter, I wear the equivalent of softshell mittens, pants and a light weight fleece top. When moving in windy conditions,  a simple and large windbreak anorak is why I use.  I keep shell mittens and a large hardshell stowed in my pack just in case (usually used when in camp).

If your clothing is breathable, the moisture sublimates on he outside of the clothing.

Here's a link I found very useful:

http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/ 

 

Paul, can I ask about your experience with cold conditions?  I should have asked everybody...  I'm just realizing that very few people go out in 0F.  And the temperature changes everything.

I think what you're saying is making sense to me.  I'm very interested in finding what actually works, rather than what is most fashionable right now.  I'm discovering that common advice/belief is a poor guide for my needs.  I took a peak at your blog...maybe you have more details there?

 

Update on hard shell vs. soft shell:

 

At the moment I'm collecting gear I need to return to REI.  Reason is I did some testing and comparisons of different combinations of gear, and the results were opposite what I expected.

The test consisted of hiking the same trail 4 times, each time with different layering combinations.   Then I warmed up/dried out inbetween each run so that it was a fair comparison.  The trail section is ~1 mile (so 2 mile round trip), and climbs ~400 feet.  Temps were 0F, and I was mostly sheltered from the 10mph wind.

I came up with 2 important conclusions:

1)  Wool is awesome as a base layer, and polyester is horrible as a base layer.   Ironically, I've been tricked into using synthetics thus far, and I didn't know how NOT warm they are until I broke down and tried my Marino wool jacket as a base layer.   With the wool jacket (not intended as a base layer) as a base and with a light fleece over it, all of that covered by a hard shell, I felt genuinely warm for the first time since I've been experimenting with layering.  (I tried the same combination of layers with the soft shell, but did not achieve a stable comfortable temperature.)

2)  My new soft shell doesn't actually work--it doesn't provide the benefits that people insist a soft shell provides.  Everyone praises soft shells for better breathability, but in my testing I found that this soft shell retained atleast as much moisture as the gore-tex pro hard shell.  I think it retained more moisture, but it is hard to make a fair comparison between such different fabric types.  The softshell in question is the Arcteryx alpha comp hoodie, and the hard shell is the arcteryx theta AR.  Interestingly, the gore-tex portions of the soft shell jacket were drier than the soft shell fabric. 

So why does the alpha comp exist if it isn't more breathable?  I guess stretchy fabric is of primary importance to climbers and the others for whom this jacket was designed.  Overall it is less warm and apparently less breathable.  Possibly it breathes during peak activity, but it cools quickly and condensation quickly forms when activity levels drop.

[PaulMags]

I have not had very good luck with what people think of as true softshell jackets. Again, I find a simple 100 wt fleece pullover when moving works very well. Or, if particularly windy and/or very cold, an anorak windbreaker..non WPB.  

I use thick wool mittens (Dachstein) on my hands with wool liner gloves.  On my legs, light running pants OR wool pants if colder/more stop and go. Medium weight base layers worn next to skin. Wool breathes well but I am finding it does not simply last..an expensive tradeoff. A light beanie on my head.

As for experience, my avatar photo was taken at -5F

[Aaron Zagrodnick]

I've had good success with synthetic baselayers in the cold, like Patagonia Capilene or similar, and I've collected enough pieces over the years to mix and match depending on temps. I have started working more wool in however, just seems to almost auto adjust to varying temps. I think the key is to keep experimenting to find what works for you, which it sounds like you're doing, it's a good excuse for a hike as well! 

Versatility for me is the key which comes with the layering approach, there's a big difference between going uphill with a pack on in the sun and little wind compared to heading downhill on a broken trail after sunset on a windy winter night or sitting in camp. On a recent trip temps varied from -10 to +20F, sunshine to cloudy and windy to not, with activity ranging from high exertion postholing to just sitting in camp. By having the ability to go from light super breathable baselayers to totally sealed mode and every possible configuration in between I never got cold or overheated either. everything is basically always in a constant state of adjustment - by breaking a more all in one jacket down into its separate components with alternate individual pieces, you can really dial things in to varying conditions and activity levels to keep things just right.

[fredygump]

@Aaron, it sounds so simple when you say it! 

I'm just realizing that my hands and feet haven't ever felt cold this year.  But my arms and legs have often felt chilled, even though hands and feet have stayed warm.  I'm only wearing thin polartec stretch gloves and uninsulated boots.

Today was -5F, and my hands were again very warm.  With the wool base layer, my upper body stayed warm, but my legs, with the fleece leggings and ski pants, were uncomfortably cold.  But my feet were warm.  So the coldness that I've been feeling must be because of the base layers I've been using, rather than due to lack of insulation. But for some reason I thought these base layers were about keeping me warm, rather than for keeping me cool?

 

I think a wool base layer on my legs will be a big improvement.   I already have a pair of Columbia ski pants...I guess they work okay. But the lining sticks to clothing making them hard to put on, and the zippers always get stuck...

Any suggestions for a "relaxed fit" shell pant?  Without a lining?  I have "biker legs", so most hiking pants just don't work for me. 

Does it make sense to get a pant that serves double duty as a shell pant and rain paint?  

 

[PaulMags]

Wool or synthetic baselayer should have no noticeable effect.  The gentlemen I linked to above play in the very cold and dry Canadian Shield and have a mix of wool and synthetics and seems to do all do well.

Describe these ski pants more? Are they insulated? If so, the moisture from your legs is more than likely getting into the insulating actually causing you to get cold.

[fredygump]

1 hour ago, PaulMags said:

Wool or synthetic baselayer should have no noticeable effect.  The gentlemen I linked to above play in the very cold and dry Canadian Shield and have a mix of wool and synthetics and seems to do all do well.

Describe these ski pants more? Are they insulated? If so, the moisture from your legs is more than likely getting into the insulating actually causing you to get cold.

For me, wearing any kind of fleece/polyesther/wicking base layer creates the sensation of cold wind blowing on my skin.  It doesn't matter if I have a fleece jacket over it as a mid layer.  Outside temp doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

This "chilling" is especially noticeable when I am moving.  If I stop to adjust bindings on my shoes, I start to feel warm.  But the moment I start moving again, my skin feels chilled.  (Yes, I'm wearing a hard shell over these layers.)

But with the wool, I just feel warmth.  There isn't a hint of being cold.  This is sort of a revelation to me!  I hadn't worn wool while hiking before I tested it on Saturday.  I only have 1 wool garment, and I bought it on a whim, not expecting to use it for hiking.  But when I tried it in my test, the difference was remarkable. 

I compared the wool to the synthetics on the same day, same conditions, same trail.  The difference was was incredible.  I already ordered some wool items for layering (thank god for 50% off sales!), and today I returned most of the synthetic stuff and the soft shell jacket.

 

The ski pants are columbia Chilliwack.  Shell with [lining.   I didn't notice any moisture inside of them.  I guess they work okay, but the lining they chose is pretty horrible.

 

And yeah, normally if my legs and arms feel cold, my hands and feet are freezing!  But what I am experiencing is that my hands and feet are staying warm, while at the same time my arms and legs are feeling chilled (while wearing the synthetic base layers).

Edited January 18, 2016 by fredygump

[fredygump]

----Update----

 

Much better results today.  I was wearing the wool, and stayed a much more even temperature.  Plus, after snowshoing 8 miles, I noticed that there was no moisture built up on the inside of the hardshell.  I was wearing a day pack/camelback, so my back was a bit damp under the pack.  I'd say I found something that works for me.

 

I also got a little more technical and brought along a heart rate monitor.   I found that if I kept my heart rate right around 120 bpm, I stayed comfortable.  When I got over 130 bpm, I started feeling warm, and I think that is where I start sweating.  So as long as I mostly stay below that 130, moisture problems should be solved.

Temps were near 20F, pit zips closed, and front zipper 1/4 unzipped most of the time.

This pace is similar to my normal pace, but in the past I probably got my heart rate up close to 150bpm climbing hills. 

 

What I don't know is if the lack of condensation on my shell was because I was sweating less (because of heart rate monitoring), or if it is because I wore a wool mid-layer.   I think I'll test that out tomorrow--wool base layer, with fleece mid layer.  Maybe the fleece wicks moisture too quickly, overwhelming the "breathing" action of the shell?  I don't know...but that's what science is for! 

[Dogwood]

For the snowshoeing I do which is more along the line of winter backpacking where I'm still covering very good miles over  more than a night I generally prefer a stretchy RAB Neo  neoshell for its superior  air permeability and versatility of handling the cold/wet, cold/dry, wind/no wind variable weather and possible pace where I may not even be snow shoeing the entire trek.   I would not use any Gore Tex hard shell product for  snowshoeing. For done in a day snowshoeing of the mileage you refer in fair but cold   weather  even at -2* where I don't expect to get seriously wet from outside conditions I may even top layer with a Wind Jacket or no jacket at all.

 

The other jacket I've been looking at as a possible replacement to  my Rab Neo is a Power Shield jacket. Could require  missing  a car payment for that though and I already have enough jackets for the time being that work for me.  

  

From my perspective gotta be careful in that with some of the most current technologies and jackets on the market the lines are being somewhat blurred on what was once typically viewed as a hard line soft shell or hard shell choice. Seems like there are jackets that are combining some of the best traits from both in new jackets.    

Ahhh, a thinking solution minded  rather than a complaining person.

What I like you did Fredy, and would like to see more from others, is 1) you recognized different  weather conditions having an affect on your gear's performance hence having an affect on you 2) you have an affect on your gear's performance which so often users seem to ignore blaming poor gear performance only on the gear.  You recognized that by changing your pace slightly to something slower while also layering different (YOU DID SOMETHING DIFFERENT) you could wear that Gore shell and not overwhelm its' air permeability.

No one set of gear can be all things to all people all the time.   

[fredygump]

32 minutes ago, Dogwood said:

For the snowshoeing I do which is more along the line of winter backpacking where I'm still covering very good miles over  more than a night I generally prefer a stretchy RAB Neo  neoshell for its superior  air permeability and versatility of handling the cold/wet, cold/dry, wind/no wind variable weather and possible pace where I may not even be snow shoeing the entire trek.   I would not use any Gore Tex hard shell product for  snowshoeing. For done in a day snowshoeing of the mileage you refer in fair but cold   weather  even at -2* where I don't expect to get seriously wet from outside conditions I may even top layer with a Wind Jacket or no jacket at all.

 

I guess I'm going back to the as old as the hills traditional wisdom about being active in cold weather--don't sweat!  

I'm becoming doubtful that any fabric will fix the problem of moisture combined with cold temps.  I tried a soft shell...well, it was a "composite", part hard shell, part soft shell.  It was a well designed garment (I kind of miss the hood...), but I didn't notice any significant difference between it and my hard shell.

I am not against trying a "true" soft shell like the one you mentioned, but for now I'll work within the limits of the gear I have. 

Here is a video I found about new vs. old gore-tex.  It shows air permeability of an old "pro" jacket vs. a new "pro" jacket (as of 2014).  It clearly shows that the new fabric is more air permeable.  (Air permeability is a completely separate thing from the thing that Gore is famous for--the diffusion of moisture through a membrane.)   This would definitely undermine the advantages of the soft shell.

 

 

I wish I knew more about how mountaineers and polar explorers deal with the problem of moisture in the cold.  I've seen the down expedition suits sold for polar exploration, but they don't have any obvious ways to manage temperature.  How do they prevent the suit from getting damp from perspiration and sweat?  It seems to me that in cold temps, the insulation toward the outside is very cold.  As moisture tries to move through the insulation to "breathe", it will freeze on the down insulation.   That's what Seano said earlier...mentioning how down(?) sleeping bags gradually turned into chunks of ice.